CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: the deadlocked Democrats.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Doesn't matter whether it's in six minutes, six days or six weeks. We're going to get it done.
CHUCK TODD:
President Biden delays the vote on the bipartisan infrastructure bill, as progressive and moderate Democrats fail to agree on social spending.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I'm telling you, we're going to get this done.
CHUCK TODD:
Progressives hold firm on their social policy bill.
REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL:
I have consistently said that we need a vote in the Senate.
CHUCK TODD:
Moderates push back on the price tag --
SEN. JOE MANCHIN:
I'm not asking them to change, I am willing to come from zero to 1.5.
CHUCK TODD:
-- even as they agree both bills must pass.
REP. DEBBIE DINGELL:
We all have one common vision: failure is not an option.
CHUCK TODD:
My guests this morning: Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont and Senior White House advisor Cedric Richmond. Plus, Facebook under fire --
SEN. MARSHA BLACKBURN:
Facebook knows that its services are actively harming young children.
CHUCK TODD:
-- for reportedly hiding research showing that its Instagram platform is harmful to teenagers. I'll talk to tech journalist and co-host of the podcast "Sway," Kara Swisher and one of the lead reporters on the Wall Street Journal's "Facebook Files" series, Jeff Horwitz. Also, Afghanistan fallout.
GEN. KENNETH McKENZIE:
I recommended that we maintain 2,500 troops in Afghanistan.
CHUCK TODD:
Top military leaders say President Biden rejected advice to leave some forces in Afghanistan --
SEN. TOM COTTON:
Did these officers and General Milley's recommendation get to the president personally?
SEC. LLOYD AUSTIN:
Their input was received by the president.
CHUCK TODD:
-- but forcefully push back against Republican demands that they resign. Joining me for insight and analysis are: Wall Street Journal columnist Peggy Noonan; former Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson; Susan Page, the Washington Bureau Chief for USA Today; and Jake Sherman, founder of Punchbowl News. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. Well, at least Congress made sure the government didn't shut down. But that's not all that didn't happen this past week. Democrats, with slim majorities and big differences of opinion, did not manage to pass either of their two big priorities. Moderate Democrats wanted to pass the bipartisan infrastructure bill and keep negotiating on the progressives' larger social spending wish list. That didn’t happen. Progressive Democrats wanted more certainty on that social spending bill before voting for the infrastructure bill. And that didn’t happen. Here’s what did happen. President Biden traveled to Capitol Hill and told both sides their two priorities are linked -- which is just what progressives wanted to hear -- and that the infrastructure bill will have to wait for an agreement on the social spending bill. Mr. Biden's decision left moderates feeling betrayed and progressives feeling emboldened, because their stay-strong approach had been validated at the highest level. It may still take weeks to get this done. The gamble now for Democrats is by delaying a sure thing that everyone wants -- that infrastructure bill -- they risk getting nothing, and having nothing to offer voters next year.
PRES JOE BIDEN:
It doesn’t matter whether it’s in six minutes, six days, or six weeks. We’re going to get it done.
CHUCK TODD:
President Biden putting his popular trillion-dollar infrastructure bill on hold after a rebellion by progressives.
REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL:
Everyone wants these roads and bridges. But people aren't going to remember a road the way they will remember if they wake up in the morning and they now have childcare so they can go back to work.
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ:
We need a vote, we need to be real. Are we going to deliver universal pre-K to this country or not?
CHUCK TODD:
House Speaker Pelosi had promised to call a vote on the bipartisan infrastructure bill on Monday.
REP. NANCY PELOSI:
We will bring the bill to the floor tomorrow for consideration.
CHUCK TODD:
Then again on Thursday:
REP. NANCY PELOSI:
There will be a vote today. There will be a vote today.
CHUCK TODD:
But put it off on Friday for a third time, without the votes to pass it.
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
Speaker Pelosi, when will there be a vote?
REP. NANCY PELOSI:
When we have the votes.
CHUCK TODD:
The decision was a blow to the party’s moderate wing:
REPORTER:
Is this a setback for the president's agenda and the Democratic agenda?
REP. HENRY CUELLAR:
I think if we get it done, it will be a victory. The question is, when do we get that victory?
CHUCK TODD:
New Jersey Congressman Josh Gottheimer, a moderate, criticized Pelosi, saying she "breached her firm, public commitment" to bring the bill up for a vote in September and lashed out at a “small far left faction of the House."
PRE. JOE BIDEN:
Everybody's frustrated. It's a part of being in government.
CHUCK TODD:
The president told House Democrats in a closed-door meeting on Capitol Hill to lower the price tag to between $1.9 and $2.3 trillion -- closer to what West Virginia Senator Manchin is demanding.
SEN. JOE MANCHIN:
My topline has been 1.5 because I believe in my heart that what we can do and what the needs we have right now and what we can afford to do without basically changing our whole society to an entitlement mentality.
CHUCK TODD:
Arizona's Kyrsten Sinema, another wildcard, has privately said she will not support corporate or income tax rate increases. On Saturday, she called the two-track process an "ineffective stunt."
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
You could bring the moderates and progressives together very easy if you had two more votes. Two.
CHUCK TODD:
Progressives say even a smaller bill must address their priorities: housing, climate change, childcare, eldercare and paid family leave, immigration and a Medicare expansion.
REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL:
We need to have a way to verify that whatever we agree to does not get delayed and does not get changed.
CHUCK TODD:
Biden campaigned on his ability to bring people together and deliver, contrasting his pragmatism with opponent Bernie Sanders in the primary.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Can you get it done? Have you ever done anything big? Have you ever been able to put together coalitions?
CHUCK TODD:
Now - he is being challenged to make good on that promise.
REPORTER:
Why isn’t the party united?
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Come on, man. Unite the party? 50/50, I got it.
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. He's, of course, the chair of the Senate Budget Committee. Senator Sanders, welcome back to Meet the Press, sir.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
My pleasure.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me start with what apparently the president said behind closed doors to the House Democrats. And he floated the idea that, "Hey, this number's going to be a little bit lower, $1.9 trillion to $2.2 trillion." Have you accepted the fact that it's not going to be $3.5 trillion?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Chuck, that is -- by the way, that is not my understanding of what he said. What he said is there's going to have to be give and take on both sides. I'm not clear that he did bring forth a specific number. But what the president also said, and what all of us are saying, is that maybe the time is now for us to stand up to powerful special interests who are currently spending hundreds of millions of dollars trying to prevent us from doing what the American people want. We want to lower, substantially, prescription drug costs in this country so we're not paying ten times more for certain drugs than Canada and other countries. And the pharmaceutical industry has 1,400 lobbyists on Capitol Hill right now trying to stop us. We want to deal with the existential threat of climate change. We want to deal with child care. We want to expand Medicare so elderly people can chew their food, can have hearing aids, can have eyeglasses. And we can pay for this by demanding that the wealthiest people and largest corporations finally start paying their fair share of taxes. That's what this struggle is about. Do we do what the American people want? Do we fulfill what democracy is supposed to be about? Or do we bow down to powerful special interests?
CHUCK TODD:
What is your preference when you're writing this bill? Look, I know what your initial preference was. You believed $3.5 trillion is the compromise, that you started, you started at $6 trillion. But whatever the number ends up being agreed upon, do you believe in these programs? 'Cause there's a large wish list and a set of needs the country has, but you might not be able to do all of them fully funded. Do you believe in trying to do as many of them as you can and maybe some of them are smaller programs and you'll vote on them in a couple years to extend the funding? Or do you think you've got to do three or four things really well?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Chuck, this is not a wish list. Climate change and cutting carbon emissions has everything to do with whether or not we leave this planet to future generations that is healthy and is habitable. Scientists tell us we got a few years. You want more workers out in the workforce, we need to reform child care so that a million women can come back to work and not have to pay, as a family, 20% or 30% of their income for child care. You have to have a skilled workforce. We can't have a skilled workforce and do the good jobs that are out there unless we train young people. That's why we want to make community colleges' tuition free. So this is not a wish list. This is what the working families of this country want and what the economy needs. The real question is -- will Congress -- the Republicans, of course, are owned by the pharmaceutical industry and the fossil fuel industry. We don't expect them to do anything. But the question now is whether the Democrats can come together, and I think that we can, to finally do what working families in this country desperately want us to do.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, I'm curious. One of the things that we've observed here in our news division is we know we're going to be closer to a deal when we see you and Senator Manchin in the same room with the president. And I'm curious. Senator Schumer apparently had a memo that had the number that Senator Manchin was -- basically his beginning negotiating number. Was that news to you, or have you known this for a couple of months, where Senator Manchin stood on his red lines?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, Senator Manchin has in fact been public about talking, I think, his number was $1.5 trillion. That's fine. That's a good negotiating start. Manchin has also said that he wants it paid for. And I want it paid for. And you can pay for it with a $3.5 trillion bill by finally demanding that the wealthiest people and large corporations start paying their fair share of taxes. As you well know, Chuck, there's a given year when Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk, the wealthiest people in this country, don't pay a nickel in federal income taxes. Large corporations don't pay a nickel. We address that, you could pay for $3.5 trillion. You could pay for a $6 trillion bill and pay for it completely.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. I understand that. But was this a number -- A lot of people are wondering, "Hey, why are we waiting until this week to start these negotiations, when apparently we knew Senator Manchin's starting number in July. It just feels like a lot of time was wasted.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, no, that's not accurate. I mean, there has been serious negotiations going on, literally, for months now. And there is a frustration that it has taken this long. I think -- I voted for the infrastructure bill. I think it's important that we rebuild our roads and our bridges and our water systems. That's very, very good. But it is absolutely imperative that we have a strong and comprehensive reconciliation bill which finally addresses the needs of working families. So, you know, our job right now is to rally the American people to continue the negotiations. And I think at the end of the day we're going to pass both pieces of legislation.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to talk about this issue of having them both linked together. I want you to react to what Senator Kyrsten Sinema said yesterday. "Arizonans and all everyday Americans expect their lawmakers to consider legislation on the merits rather than obstruct new jobs and critical infrastructure investments for no substantive reason. What Americans have seen instead is an ineffective stunt to gain leverage over a separate proposal." She's referring to what happened in the House and the delay of that vote as a stunt. You were very supportive of the decision to hold off supporting that bill until everything was agreed upon. What do you say to Senator Sinema and to other moderates who don't like the linking of these two bills, that think it sort of sends a message of dysfunction to the rest of the country?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
No, it's not a message of dysfunction. And I'm sure you remember, from the very beginning of this process the president of the United States, Speaker Pelosi, Majority Leader Chuck Schumer made it clear, "We're going down this road in a dual way." Both bills have got to be linked together, because there is a strong feeling on the part of many of us that if you just pass the infrastructure bill, which is a good bill, I voted for it, then we will not get to the bill that working families really want, that finally demands that the wealthiest people of this country start paying their fair share of taxes. So what we said is, "Look, we all want the infrastructure bill. Great. But we also have got to do the reconciliation bill which addresses the long-neglected needs of working families and the elderly." Expanding Medicare to cover dental, hearing aids, and eyeglasses, doing child care, doing community colleges, enormously important for working families.
CHUCK TODD:
You made it clear, and I think there is a path for you and Senator Manchin to find a path to get -- to meet somewhere, whether that's the middle, and somebody can define the middle. Because you do agree on a philosophy on how to pay for this, on those taxes. Are you close with Senator Sinema or do you feel like you're farther apart in getting her agreement on this?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, there are a lot of people who are negotiating with Senator Sinema. She has been in the White House as I understand it on numerous occasions. I think the people of Arizona are beginning to stand up and show some impatience there and saying, "You know, Senator, join the team here. Let's get something done on reconciliation." Look, sometimes, Chuck, in all due respect, the media thinks this is the Red Sox playing the Yankees. It is not. This is a long and complicated process which is dealing with the most consequential piece of legislation probably since the New Deal in the Great Depression. It's a big deal. And it's not going to happen overnight. And the president is absolutely right. It doesn't matter whether it's next week or three weeks from now. What matters is that we finally address the problems facing working families. That's what matters.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, I was just going to say. Deadlines are all artificial in your mind right now?
SEN.BERNIE SANDERS:
Of course they are. What matters is that we do it and we do it well. And when we do both of these pieces of legislation I think the American people are going to say, "Thank you, Mr. P resident. Thank you, Democrats in the Congress. And by the way, where the hell were the Republicans in not having the guts to stand up to powerful special interests?"
CHUCK TODD:
Senator Bernie Sanders, the chair of the Senate Budget Committee, the Independent senator from Vermont who caucuses with the Democrats, appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective.
SEN.BERNIE SANDERS:
Thank you very much.
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is Cedric Richmond. He's the senior advisor to President Biden. Mr. Richmond, welcome back to Meet the Press. I should also note, as a former member of Congress you obviously know quite a bit about what's going on in the Democratic Conference there as well. So welcome back to Meet the Press.
CEDRIC RICHMOND
Thanks for having me, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me just start with some basics here. Where are we? And let me ask it this way: When the president acknowledged that these bills have to be passed together -- maybe it wasn't his initial preference but he's acknowledging the reality now -- he also seemed to indicate that the number -- the overall social spending number's going to come down to somewhere between $1.9 and $2.2 trillion. Is that where we are?
CEDRIC RICHMOND:
I'm not exactly sure in terms of the number. And we don't talk about it in terms of the number. We talk about it in terms of the needs that we need to meet for the people, in terms of the child tax credit, in terms of making sure that we bring health care costs down, in terms of prescription drugs, making sure that we make it more affordable. So we'll continue to do what we did with the American Rescue Plan, and that is to make sure we're meeting the needs of the American people. And then at the end of the day, we see what that adds up to. And here in this case we'll see how many of the needs that we can build consensus around and meet.
CHUCK TODD:
I am curious of that. Philosophically there is a bit of a divide. I heard somebody refer to it as "the appetizer strategy," meaning this: You try to do a lot of programs, and maybe if you can't fund them as fully as you wanted to, maybe they're shorter term, you create cliffs and you sort of see what sticks. Another philosophy says, "No, do three or four programs really well." What is the philosophy of the president?
CEDRIC RICHMOND:
Well, we will consult with Congress. Congress plays a big role in how this will ultimately look. But we've been clear from the start that we wanted to cut taxes for over 50 million American families, that we wanted to bring down the cost of health care, and that we wanted to finally address the climate change and make sure that we're fighting for our future. And we're going to do that by making sure that the wealthy and big corporations pay their fair share. Working families have been doing it for a very long time.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, but you're evading, obviously, specifics here. I get it. You don't want to negotiate in public. But are there some non-starters here? I mean, are there some programs that have to be included no matter whether it's $1.5 trillion or $3.5 trillion?
CEDRIC RICHMOND:
Well, no. I won't get into red lines on TV. The president has made clear his red line which was he was not willing to raise taxes on anyone who made less than $400,000. And so that's our red line. And we're going to work with Congress to make sure we meet the challenges. So I just went down a list of programs that are very important that we want to meet. And we're going to continue to meet with people until we get it done.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think relations with Senator Sinema are still good faith? And I say that because here was her statement yesterday: "Good-faith negotiations, however, require trust. Over the course of this year Democratic leaders have made conflicting promises that not all -- could not all be kept, and have at times pretended that differences of opinion within our party did not exist, even when those disagreements were repeatedly made clear directly and publicly." She has indicated that there isn't enough trust in the Democratic Party. Do you -- what do you say to her?
CEDRIC RICHMOND:
There's enormous amount of trust in the Democratic Party. But more importantly, there's a lot of focus on the American families. And look, people will be disappointed. People will not get everything they want. That is the art of legislating. But the goal here is to get both bills. And we're going to fight until we get both bills. And that's the statement from the president. Human infrastructure is important and physical infrastructure is important. So we're going to do both.
CHUCK TODD:
There was -- it was news this week to the public that Joe Manchin's bottom line was $1.5 trillion. Yet apparently he gave that number to Senator Schumer in July and apparently to President Biden quite a, quite a while ago. A lot of progressives, that was news to them on Wednesday or Thursday. Why is that? Why did it seem as if -- they were complaining that, "Hey, tell us what you want," and it turned out Manchin did? So did this unnecessarily delay negotiations?
CEDRIC RICHMOND:
No. When you ask, "What do you want," remember, we're not talking about this in terms of a number. We're talking about this in terms of the programs that meet the needs of the American people. So when we say, "What do you want," do you want childcare? Do you want elder care? Do you want paid leave? Do you want to bring down the cost of prescription drugs? Do you want to expand Medicaid? Do you want to give tax breaks to working families in this country? When we say, "What do you want," that's what we mean. And so our job is to bring people together, shape this in terms of the needs that we're going to meet. And then we'll see what a price tag is. We'll see where we end up. We'll see how long the programs will be in existence until they have to be renewed. That's how we're going to approach it. This is not about a number, because at the end of the day, here's what's important, Chuck. The number is zero. We are paying for everything in this piece of legislation. And it's very popular with the American people that the wealthy and big corporations finally pay their fair share. So we're going to pay for everything we do. So it's not arbitrary numbers. The number is zero.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. When are we -- when is the new deadline? We know Congress doesn't act without deadlines. Are you going to get the debt ceiling and then you're going to try to get this done? Is it by the end of October? Is it Thanksgiving? Or is there no deadline?
CEDRIC RICHMOND:
Unfortunately, Chuck, we both know that Congress works better when there are hard deadlines. But with the debt ceiling, we're going to keep our head down. We're going to work. And we're going to work on the bipartisan infrastructure bill and the reconciliation bill all at the same time. We can do it. This administration has been counted out over and over. If we go back to the American Rescue Plan and others you'll see it. But here's what's important. The real question is why are Republicans making us go at everything alone? We had to do the American Rescue Plan alone, which created more jobs than any administration in our history, which has increased our economic growth better than anybody in the last four years. We're going to have to be the mature party, responsible party, and keep us from going off of the debt cliff and ruining the economy and knocking everybody's retirement down, raising the cost of cars and interest and all of those things. Why do we have to keep going at it alone? But the good news is we do have a united Democratic Party. We're always going to put people and purpose first, not politics. And we're going to get it done.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, it sounds like after a long September it may be a long October. Cedric Richmond, senior advisor to President Biden, appreciate you coming on and sharing the administration's perspective.
CEDRIC RICHMOND:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, will Democrats be rewarded if they deliver on both bills? Or will they lose their gamble and end up with nothing to offer voters? Panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Panel is here: Susan Page, the Washington Bureau chief for USA Today. Jake Sherman, the founder of Punchbowl News, former Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson and Wall Street Journal columnist Peggy Noonan. All right, Mr. Sherman. This is, this is -- you're the creature of the Hill, as far as this panel is concerned. Both Bernie Sanders and Cedric Richmond said this is not about a number. They said it multiple times. Let me ask you. If this is not about a number, then why don't we have a deal?
JAKE SHERMAN:
It's about a number. I think, listen, I think that everybody is trying to figure out what the number is, what could fit inside that number, and what they can do. I mean, I think what you're seeing is the fact that this is a generational piece of legislation. I mean, Pelosi called it, and we're next to the Pelosiologist here, the culmination of her career. She said everything she's been building up to for 30 years in public office, more than that, is, is in this legislation. So people are taking it seriously. And every side is doing what they can. This is, like, a great example of power politics. Every side is doing what they can to gain as much leverage against the other side, to achieve the end they're trying to achieve.
CHUCK TODD:
Susan, Speaker Pelosi rarely blinks, and the progressives made her blink.
SUSAN PAGE:
And they made her blink. And, you know, and of course, when you go back to the Affordable Care Act, which was a comparable, big victory, that's assuming she gets a victory here, but it was the last kind of big victory where she faced seemingly really difficult odds. The liberals, the progressives blinked on things like a --
CHUCK TODD:
They blinked, right.
SUSAN PAGE:
-- public option. And they did not blink this time. I think there are two reasons. There are more of them. And they are willing to risk getting nothing as opposed to accepting half a loaf. And that has changed the political landscape here.
CHUCK TODD:
Jeh Johnson, there's, and I know people hate this phrase, the conventional wisdom.
JEH JOHNSON:
Yes. Right?
CHUCK TODD:
But our friends at The New York Times put it, okay, Biden sided with the left. Now, I said this to the White House, the White House would say it was just political reality of getting a bill passed. They don't accept the idea that they sold the moderates out. But some view it that way.
JEH JOHNSON:
Well, let's not forget that the bill the progressives are pushing for is Biden's bill. It's his domestic agenda.
CHUCK TODD:
He wrote it. Right.
JEH JOHNSON:
It's not as if it's some wild-eyed far left socialist piece of legislation. This is Joe Biden's Build Back Better domestic agenda. And the progressives are carrying his water on Capitol Hill and appear to be doing it rather effectively right now. And so I personally believe that there's going to be a deal at some point. It’s going to be messy.
CHUCK TODD:
They can't not have a deal, right? Like, I mean --
JEH JOHNSON:
Yes, there's going to be a deal,.
CHUCK TODD:
I think that's what a bunch of us looking at, I don't know how they get their deal.
JEH JOHNSON:
Whether it's $3.5, $2.5, $2.75. Who knows? But there will be a deal because they can't walk, none of them can walk away empty handed.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Peggy, though, Susan brought up healthcare. And I've been thinking about healthcare. I remember when the deadline was the August recess. And then the deadline was the end of September. Then it was Thanksgiving. Then it was Christmas Eve. And then, you know, it was March. And we got to the point where the process so dominated that the legislation never had a chance to get sold to the American public.
PEGGY NOONAN:
Yes.
CHUCK TODD:
At what point do the Democrats fall into that trap with the process consuming the substance?
PEGGY NOONAN:
I think this -- however long this struggle or disarray or whatever it is takes, the worse it looks. I think these two bills, now squished into sort of one initiative, I think with the mess around it, and with the sense that the progressive caucus and the progressives are in charge, they're driving this, they're the face of this, I think in a very broadly public way in America, that does not look good. And it becomes a little bit poisonous. I mean, I think when you move on something as big as $3.5, plus $1.2 for the infrastructure, you're talking about big things. You ought to have some sort of mandate behind you. They've got a 50/50 Senate, a close House. Joe Biden was not elected in mandate territory, so I don't understand what they're doing. It seems to me that a $1.2 trillion infrastructure bill, it's popular. Pass it. Take the win. Beyond that, you have a separate bill. Tease out the most popular things. Take those wins. I don't get the maximalist attitude at all.
CHUCK TODD:
I'm guessing you may have, like, been eavesdropping on Terry McAuliffe's phone calls because I say this because at a debate earlier this week, I asked Terry McAuliffe about the $3.5 price tag. He took the opportunity, Jake, to take after everybody in Congress. Take a listen.
[BEGIN TAPE]
TERRY McAULIFFE:
I think the $3.5's too high.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you?
TERRY McAULIFFE:
Sure. But here's my message to Congress. I am really sick and tired of all of them. They've got to stop their little chitty chat up there. And it's time for them to pass it.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. I got one more for each of you.
TERRY McAULIFFE:
Let's get this infrastructure bill passed for America.
[ENDTAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
We teased this show about ‘22, but the canary in the coal mine about the Democratic Party's position in America is in a month.
JAKE SHERMAN:
Yes. I think, listen. It's an easy, an easy battering ram to just say, you know, "Congress is bad." And everybody will agree with Congress being bad and not being able to do this. But listen, I think that this is what Josh Gottheimer and the moderates are saying, right? Give this guy a victory. Give Joe Biden a victory. He needs it now. His poll numbers are down. He just had a really difficult withdrawal from Afghanistan, to say the least. Give this president, our president, the Democratic president, a victory. That's what the moderate Democrats are saying.
SUSAN PAGE:
And here's why they're not doing that is because they think this is the last train leaving the station.
CHUCK TODD:
That's what I was wondering here, yes.
SUSAN PAGE:
That's the risk. This is why everything's been piled into this reconciliation bill, because there is, there is entirely possible that it's the last chance to get a big piece of Democratic legislation through before we are completely overtaken by the midterms.
JEH JOHNSON:
The reality, the reality or the psychology driving a lot of this is the fear that a four year presidency or a two year Congress is really only one year to get big stuff done.
CHUCK TODD:
Oh, they're acting like it. There’s no clear --
JEH JOHNSON:
Right.
JAKE SHERMAN:
And it's probably true to some degree.
JEH JOHNSON:
And it really, it's not even a year. It's a month to get big stuff done. So what happens is 95% of the people's business all gets done at the 12th hour.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, this is the issue. There is no second bite at the apple. And guess what? Look back at the last 30 years. Nobody's gotten a second bite at the apple. George W. Bush got to do one big thing. That was it. Obama.
SUSAN PAGE:
Gosh.
CHUCK TODD:
I would argue there hasn't been a second bite. So history says --
SUSAN PAGE:
Gosh, guys, we're nine months into this administration. A series of smaller bills that you can pass, one after another, giving a sense of momentum --
CHUCK TODD:
Which Congress --
SUSAN PAGE:
Giving a sense of confidence --
CHUCK TODD:
Which Congress can do that?
SUSAN PAGE:
I forget which one did. But they can do it, damn it.
JEH JOHNSON:
In our lifetime. How about that?
CHUCK TODD:
Well, that's the -- so Jake, how does the Senate, and is there a new deadline? I heard Bernie Sanders, no deadline. We joked about what happened with healthcare. Is the end of the year unreasonable at this point?
JAKE SHERMAN:
No. I think that's the story that we're looking at. And I would also say that the healthcare law was passed over ten months. And what Pelosi's trying to do is she's trying to pass this bill, or what Congress is trying to do in a really compressed time period. I mean, they really didn't get started until the summer. And, and they're trying to do it in four or five months, and that's difficult. I do think something gets done. I think it's going to be really messy. I would say that October 30th, or the end of the month, is going to be a deadline because there's a highway funding that needs to be refreshed. Congress just refreshed it on Friday night, but they can refresh it again.
CHUCK TODD:
There is a deadline. And of course, they can also decide that the day of the week never ends, as they did. They can always keep the day --
JAKE SHERMAN:
Yes, I don't buy that, but yes.
CHUCK TODD:
--longer than 24 hours if necessary. When we come back, Facebook under fire for everything from Instagram on teens, to January 6th. That's next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Facebook is under fire on a number of fronts right now. Last week, politicians from both parties condemned Facebook, accusing it of hiding research that shows how harmful Instagram, its platform, can be for teenage girls. In fact, the Wall Street Journal reported, for instance, that one Instagram research slide said, "We make body image issues worse for one in three teen girls." But Facebook's problems go well beyond what's going on at Instagram. The New York Times reports that the same Facebook whistleblower who has been giving research to the Wall Street Journal is accusing Facebook of easing some security safeguards shortly after the election, and that it ended up helping to incite the January 6th riot. This whistleblower will reveal her identity tonight, and she is scheduled to testify before Congress on Tuesday. So joining me for more on all of this is Jeff Horwitz. He's one of the Wall Street Journal reporters who's been reporting on Facebook under their umbrella "Facebook Files," and Kara Swisher, a tech journalist and cohost of the podcast Sway. Welcome to both of you. I should mention, we asked Facebook to provide us with a guest and they declined. Jeff, I want to start with this and what we're going to hear tonight and next week from this whistleblower. But it seems as if, whether it's what you've been reporting on on what they did in research of Instagram or the elite group -- or sort of the fact that elite Facebook users get treated differently than normal Facebook users, this is coming from inside of Facebook. How under siege as they as a company right now?
JEFF HORWITZ:
So, we have heard that they actually have taken pretty much all of their researchers and basically blamed them for this. It's a very weird mentality over there. They have been kind of throwing those people under the bus, the people that they asked to understand the platform's role in the world. And that's a very kind of aggressive thing for them. I think the memo that Nick Clegg sent out internally is kind of remarkable.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah --
JEFF HORWITZ:
You are basically telling your own staff that your company can't be blamed for "as the primary cause," that was the language, for polarization in America. And that, you know, everyone should be proud to work there. But nonetheless, this does feel like a pretty remarkable couple of weeks for them internally.
CHUCK TODD:
I'm going to put up a piece of that, Kara. Here's what Nick Clegg's statement, just a part of it, said, "The suggestion that is sometimes made that the violent insurrection on January 6th would not have occurred if it was not for social media is so misleading. Mature democracies in which social media use in widespread hold elections all the time, for instance Germany's election last week, without the disfiguring presence of violence.” I have to say, I was jarred by the phrase "mature democracies."
KARA SWISHER:
Right --
CHUCK TODD:
Are we not?
KARA SWISHER:
Yes. Yes.
CHUCK TODD:
What is Facebook trying to do?
KARA SWISHER:
Well, what they're trying to do is put -- do word games, and he's excellent at them, by the way. I think they should give him a raise in that regard. But he's saying there is a primary. Look at the individual words they use. This is typical of Facebook. They've done it for decades now. Or not decades, a decade now, where they use tiny words. No one's accusing them of being the primary reason for polarization. Humanity has been awful for centuries now, that kind of thing. And so what they're doing is they're saying, "We didn't cause hate." I don't think they did. What they're doing is amplifying and weaponizing it to an unprecedented degree.
CHUCK TODD:
Jeff, you've been getting all this research from this whistleblower. There's two ways to look at what Facebook is doing. On one end you could say, "Well they're doing the research. That's good." On the other hand, they're not telling us about it. Now, they're going to argue, "Well, we're doing this research so we can make safer products." But are they doing all this research after the fact? It does seem as if they launch a product first, see what the problem is, and then they do some research to see if they can fix it. Is that the problem at Facebook, they sort of have this all backwards?
JEFF HORWITZ:
Yeah. I mean it is, that has been for years the standard way, which is you roll it out, you, you know, hope for the best, and if it doesn't work out well then, yeah, maybe you try to mitigate. And at that point you study the product and perhaps see if you can make it better without harming the engagement and growth-related reasons you did it in the first place, and if you can't then you have a conflict. And I think a big reason for why this information has made it to me is that even when Facebook does discover problems and they are fixable, the company hasn't acted, according to a lot of people who've been assigned to fix these issues.
CHUCK TODD:
How much of a divide do you think is inside of Facebook? Is this really the executives are out of touch and the rank in file are going --
KARA SWISHER:
Yeah --
CHUCK TODD:
"Hey, wait a minute, we've been proud of what we were doing, but even we didn't understand the power of what we were doing."
KARA SWISHER:
They understand the power of it. That's just nonsense. I mean, I think what's happening is the employees are tossing documents over the wall to people like Jeff, you know? This is what's happening is they cannot -- it’s not tenable for -- this is a company whose employees didn't really leak for a long, long time. But you're seeing it all over tech. It's not just here. It’s people are like, "Just a second, what we're doing is damaging," you know, I interviewed Marc Benioff a couple years ago. He called it cigarettes. It's not precisely cigarettes, is it? It's also gambling. It might be opiates. It might be other things. But the people inside those companies are recognizing that this company doesn't anticipate consequences, and then tries to clean it up later, and then not very well.
CHUCK TODD:
Jeff, they really hate the tobacco metaphor. Trust me, I heard this firsthand myself. The idea, you know, because they just don't accept the premise that social media is harmful, right? Cigarettes, no matter how you look at it, is potentially harmful. We now all agree with that. They don't accept that single premise, although some of us think maybe we should.
JEFF HORWITZ:
Look, the company has, Adam Mosseri actually, you know, sort of compared it to cars, not cigarettes. And I actually think that's a perfectly good example, which is that this is an industry, it was a fantastic technology, really remarkable innovation. And it was not well designed initially. It was very poorly designed. And it took decades and decades of humanity figuring out how to live with it and how to incorporate it and how to, you know, include speed limits, and seatbelts, and all these other things that kind of make it safer and make it so that it's just not a constant bloodbath. And I think Facebook is sort of resisting some of that. And one of the things that the person who is going to be speaking tonight will likely be talking about is, they have had to impose break-the-glass measures. So emergency safety measures --
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah --
JEFF HORWITZ:
-- three times in the course of basically six months. Right after the election, right before, right around January 6th. And then -- by the way, in between those two times they lifted them, right? I think that's kind of an indication that this company doesn't have full control of the product, is, you know, literally within a month they had to reimpose them. And then again with Covid vaccine misinformation in the spring. And this is kind of a -- so it does feel like they are having a hard time keeping their product under control. And they seem to not want to slow down.
CHUCK TODD:
And Kara, on the Congress front we saw Richard Blumenthal --
KARA SWISHER:
Yeah --
CHUCK TODD:
-- that senator from Connecticut, had this weird moment. Didn't quite know what "Finsta" meant, which is a fake Instagram account.
KARA SWISHER:
It's not fake.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, meaning you're impersonating someone else.
KARA SWISHER:
Yeah --
CHUCK TODD:
You know, as my daughter will say, "I have a Finsta too."
KARA SWISHER:
Yeah --
CHUCK TODD:
But does Congress have the ability to do this?
KARA SWISHER:
No. Absolutely, there's a lot of great legislators who completely understand the problem. Amy Klobuchar, Ken Buck, David Cicilline, there's dozens and dozens. And even Richard Blumenthal understands. He's not a --this was just a silly thing. And that's what happened, there's this trope that Congress can't legislate. Well, you know, Richard Blumenthal is not a car expert and they can legislate. Or a finance expert. Everybody can be regulated. And we need smart legislation here to try to rein in some of this because clearly Facebook's not going to do it. And they're going to get defensive, which is what they're doing.
CHUCK TODD:
And Facebook has done something that the rest of us have been wondering how do you do it. How do you unite both parties in Washington?
KARA SWISHER:
Yeah, exactly.
CHUCK TODD:
Facebook has done it. Kara Swisher, Jeff Horwitz, thank you both. When we come back, how climate change has dangerously lowered water levels in the West. And now that's already changing people's lives. That's next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. We are thrilled to announce our streaming show Meet the Press Reports is back for a third season. Each week we take a deep dive into a single issue. Here's a quick look at some of the topics we've covered in the first two seasons.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SAMANTHA:
I did not think I was racist. I thought that I saw a truth that no one else did.
MORGAN RADFORD:
Were you racist?
SAMANTHA:
Absolutely.
JO LING KENT:
Do you believe that we're at war on the internet right now?
ERIN BROCKOVICH:
We have serious infrastructure and water issues in this country.
JACOB SOBOROFF:
How many people are at risk of an encounter with ICE?
LUCY BOUTTE:
Anybody who looks like this is at risk.
ADM. MIKE MULLEN (RET.):
Anyone fears a long term war.
KAREEM ABDUL JABAAR:
People that have not had the opportunity to use whatever tools they have to change things now see that, hey, if there's an issue that I care about, I can do something about it.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
To kick off Season 3 we're focusing on climate change and the real ways Americans' lives are *already* being changed. My colleague Cal Perry took us down the Colorado River, where the federal government declared a water shortage for the first time ever -- and water and power supplies to states are in the West at real risk. Here's a bit of his report.
[BEGIN TAPE]
CAL PERRY:
This is the visual representation of climate change. We’re here at Lake Mead and just like Lake Powell it’s at its lowest level ever. As you can see, it’s lost over 140 feet of water in just 20 years, and the effect that has on power is profound. The Hoover Dam, because of those low water levels, is currently operating at a quarter reduced capacity.
Talk to me about the importance of power and how the dam is important in that way.
KRISTEN AVERYT:
As the lake goes down less and less power is generated at the dam. For every foot that elevation drops the capacity drops by roughly five and a half megawatts.
CAL PERRY:
That means each lost foot of water powers 4-6,000 American homes. Kristen Averyt works as Nevada’s State Climate Policy Coordinator. Did you sort of see this coming, to this extent?
KRISTEN AVERYT:
This is precisely the kind of thing that we've expected all along with respect to climate change. I will say it's visceral, and for those of us who have worked on this kind of issue for decades, it’s really sad to see that it's actually here.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
And that’s the point. It’s already here. You can see the rest of Cal's report and our full show right now on Peacock. Binge away. New episodes debut every Thursday at 9pm Eastern time on NBC News Now and then, of course, on Peacock the next day. When we come back: top military brass say they advised President Biden to keep 25,000 in Afghanistan. Would it have made a difference if the president had said yes to that? That's next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. The other big story this week was the very blunt, I'd call it, a blunt hearing we got from the Pentagon leaders on Capitol Hill. And there was some dispute between whether the military advisors, what advice did the military advisors give President Biden and what did President Biden say his military advice his military advisors give? Let’s give you a little bit of a back and forth between what we heard from the President and what we heard from General McKenzie this week on Capitol Hill.
[BEGIN TAPE]
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS:
But your tip military advisors warned against withdrawing on this timeline. They wanted you to keep about 2,500 troops --
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
No, they didn't. It was split. That wasn't true. That wasn't true.
GENERAL KENNETH F. MCKENZIE JR.:
I recommended that we maintain 2,500 troops in Afghanistan.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
The idea that the Taliban would take over was premised on the notion that somehow the 300,000 troops we had trained and equipped was going to just collapse. They were going to give up. I don't think anybody anticipated that.
GENERAL KENNETH F. MCKENZIE JR.:
I stated consistently that my position was if you go below 2,500, you're going to look at a collapse of the Afghan military.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Jeh Johnson, you worked in the Pentagon before you were at DHS. You worked for Secretary Gates. You were chief counsel. So you know how this building operates. I think the surprising thing to me this week was just how public now we know the split. Now, I don't think it's a personal split. But clearly, a policy split on this withdrawal between our military leaders, both civilian and in uniform, and the president.
JEH JOHNSON:
Well, the difference of opinion is not uncommon. I was a little surprised that in their testimony, the generals made no attempt to try to reconcile what they believed versus what the President said. But I kind of know where it comes from. When anyone is up for confirmation before the Senate Armed Services Committee, which includes all the military, there's a questionnaire that they send the witness beforehand and one of the questions is, "Do you promise that you will always tell us everything we want to know?" And the three and four stars in the building take that very, very seriously. And so they answered the question very straightforward. You saw Lloyd, on the other hand, the civilian political appointee--
CHUCK TODD:
The political appointee, right --
JEH JOHNSON:
-- say, "Well, I don't discuss my conversations with the President," which is what he's supposed to say. And it's called executive privilege. But the generals are, nope. That's -- I told him this.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Peggy, there's a part of this that we should all view as very healthy, right? That we can see that there's disagreement.
PEGGY NOONAN:
Right, came out, yeah --
CHUCK TODD:
There's civilian control, all of that stuff. But it does -- the President made this decision. I'm surprised he didn't, in hindsight, own it more there in that interview.
PEGGY NOONAN:
The President looked dodgy. He looked dodgy in the original interview when he said essentially, "No, nobody told me otherwise." And then he looked bad the other day with the General Milley. I think probably he should have simply owned it and said, "Look, I was warned this might be really hard. I decided we're going to go ahead anyway." Short, though, I think the generals right now, after 20 years of war, after seeing them, after whatever they've been through, they are really media savvy. They are really aware of press clippings. They are really aware of their big hunk of medals. I was looking at General Milley the other day and I thought of Omar Bradley, General of the Army Omar Bradley, a great man. Helped win World War II. They had to remind him to put on his medals. He wanted to keep himself out of things, not in things. There's been a kind of show biz shift, I think, in the military that concerns me.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to bring up something else General Milley said, though, guys, because there is also an admittance here that this was a failure. Take a listen.
[BEGIN TAPE]
GENERAL MARK MILLEY:
Although the NEO was unprecedented in is the largest air evacuation in history, was a tactical, operational, and logistical success evacuating 124,000 people, the war was a strategic failure.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
This to me, you know, we're sitting here talking about President Biden's credibility versus his military commanders. This undermines, to me, all the military commanders of the last 20 years. Strategic failure. How many people in uniform went up to Congress and said, "Oh, no, it's working. Oh, no, it's working. Please fund it. It's working." Now you tell us it's a failure?
SUSAN PAGE:
You know, I thought that was chilling that four presidents, four administrations, a series of generals had told us, number one, that they understood what was going on in Afghanistan. Clearly we didn't. And that they lied to the American people about the real true assessment about how things were going. And I thought that was the takeaway here. I was glad that they were candid about our failures in Afghanistan. I wish they had been candid, the generals that came before them, for the past 20 years.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, I was just going to say, that's the accountability that was missing.
JEH JOHNSON:
It's never as clear when you're in the thick of it. I know from personal experience. And it was inevitable that the Taliban was going to overrun the country once we went down the path of a two way deal versus a three way deal that required the Taliban and the government to come to some terms in power sharing. Taliban used to say, "You guys may have the watches, but we have the time." And that's exactly what happened.
CHUCK TODD:
Jake, is this going to do any long-term damage to the military's ability to get what they want out of Congress? Military always gets what they want out of Congress. Is that going to change after this?
JAKE SHERMAN:
No. No. Because what the military does is they say, "We need this and we're not going to be safe unless we get this." And I think speakers of the House --
JEH JOHNSON:
That happens to work, by the way --
JAKE SHERMAN:
And it does work. It does work. But speakers --
CHUCK TODD:
We got a 20 year war in Afghanistan to prove it, that was fully funded --
JEH JOHNSON:
And we have a $760 billion defense budget.
JAKE SHERMAN:
And speakers of the House and Senate majority leaders tend to defer to them.
CHUCK TODD:
Ah. It's pretty clear. That's all I have for today. I know you have one more thing to say, but I'm too tight on time. We'll read about it next week, I bet. Thank you all for watching. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet The Press.